in in complex and and new and sometimes even somewhat abstract ways. The problem
in my view is is cultural in that in that like we we hold ourselves back. to
to Jake's point um in in not want or actually to your point too, Greg, in in
sort of wanting to fit in, not wanting to be too weird, not wanting to dig into
the things that um that set us apart. And to the extent that we're assimilative, to the extent that we want
to sort of please the other the other Christian, you know, um, denominations
and be kind of part of the club, um, I have found that is when the art softens and softens and then and then the
edgginess of the the edgginess of the piece is simply inherent in the identity that we cannot escape. As soon as they
discover, wait a Mormon drew this organ directed this film. What are they up to? What are they trying to do? They'll look
for, you know, they'll look for little, you know, cotices and and things that are trying to push the the agenda and
and and and so our our view is simply like to to do to do a 180°ree opposite
to lean into um to your point, the the the dramatic, complex, extremely unique
um elements of our doctrine that are not the same that are not the same at all. um the the pieces that are challenging
even to Latter Day Saints, you know, um that that's that's what makes it um
richer and and truer and and that's what will make it great. That's what will eventually fulfill President Kimbell's,
you know, commission. And and so so I think I think we're moving there, but there's a there is a cultural
reductiveness. Mhm. Um, and if I may, you know, kind of give you an example to to to wrap our head
around and where where our culture gets in the way of itself, right? In The Little Mermaid, this is the first this
is the first film of sort of the Disney renaissance of the '9s, right? Um, in
the in the um in the Disney version, um, you know, Ariel lives happily ever after
and, you know, it's a little dark and scary, but she makes it. She makes it with the prince. in the fairy tale. Um,
she turns to Seafoam and and the whole the whole point of the the whole point of the story is to be sort of uh tragic
and and it's a it's a cautionary tale to to Jake's point, right? It keep it it tells you something about sort of trying
to change yourself into something else and that that always backfires. um among
lots of other interpretations. And and to the extent that that we might want to
make the case for the tragic ending, our own proclivity for redemption might get in the way. Well, we want we need
redemptive stories. You know what what about the the good ending and things always end up end up right. And so like
if that's not a Latter-day Saint virtue, what is? And yet it gets in the way of
the function of having a more broad um you know a broad way of approaching
themes and ideas that we learn about in second Nephi 2. Bitter and sweet. You know the opposition in all things and
and and so you have sort of one Latter-day Saint value overpowering the other one because it feels better
because it like well that feels good that makes me feel good. I feel the spirit etc etc. when when so much of of
our history talks about the spirit warning and exhorting and trying and testing spirits, which we can talk about
more in a minute as it pertains to the piece. But um but yeah, I I I think that
like we are doing it. Um you know, and and Jake's sort of call for a renaissance is really really well uh
put, but what I what I can see happening all the time is that that the response is always like, how are we not doing
that? That's what we're trying to do. And it's like we need to get more specific about what's getting in the way of then why are we not why are we not
the greatest artistic cultural in the world you know uh you know why don't we
not have like the greatest cultural movement of art in the world if if our if our well is so deep
yeah because again again I mean as we would believe we have the most truth out there that we have we have true eternal
principles that the world does not have and so if that can be used in an expression of art there's going to to to
I I think there's some type of this is going to resonate to to others regardless of what they
know about our doctrine. I think that's going to resonate and it's going to move up right on the idea of what great art
is and h how it is a representation of truth especially eternal truth. You talk about opposition in all things. It's
also interesting because outside of art, one of the things that I always have a difficulty with in talking to an
audience is an understanding of, you know, again going back to the idea of, well, we're not going to go into consequences. We're not going to go into
the opposites. Uh we're not going to discuss the evil. We're not going to discuss anything, you know, Satan. We're
not going to discuss anything on the outside of our of our defined ring, for
example. And so what happens is even in a battle for truth, right? We we
we look at well what is in you know let me let me go to and I'll I'll use a lightning rod here but let's look to
let's look at family right and you say okay well what is family or what is marriage or or what is gender or what is
anything that has become much more ambiguous in our very postmodern world
and you say okay well whatever this is this truth is or talked about the atonement you know and what is the tr truth of the atonement we're going to
draw a circle around what it is what is this. Okay. But that it it is
inevitable with what you might call spiritual gravity,
right? It is inevitable that that circle is going to get wider and wider and wider to include everything more in into
what this represents, whatever it is that you're talk, whatever truth you're talking about, that circle is going to get wider and wider because
you're not talking about what it's not. Right? So if you there's no force from
the outside of the circle pushing it in and holding it to a certain place because you never say anything about
what it's not and and and I see that as a culture today that's the same same idea about
talking about consequences and bar you're talking about opposition. If you're not bringing those things up and
not talking about that, that circle will continue to widen and until it loses actually its definition and and and
uh the same thing in the Book of Mormon where it talks about the lack of opposition in all things and everything is one big round blob, right? Because
there's nothing outside of that. Um how do you see that, Jake, as as
affecting art in that sense, right? I mean, why do you need the consequences?
Why do you need the opposition without yet going into Barrett's film here, because we're about to do that, but why
would you need a a a definition on the outside? Or why do you need to bring up
the opposite of of of truth, honestly?
Well, I mean, if I'm being completely honest, I don't even necessarily say that I would say that it's like the
opposite of truth. I think it's an opposing aspect of that same truth. I
know it's a bit of a semantics game, but but I think that it's important. And and maybe maybe here's an example of of why
I personally think that tragedy and incorporating the darker
elements can be extremely useful. And that's because life is not always fully
redemptive. And like here's something that my wife and I learned firsthand,
which is that things are not always destined to work according to plan. And
like her struggling with multiple miscarriages and our first daughter
being born with a cleft lip and pallet, where's the redemption? It's like she had access to surgeries. Thank heavens
because we live in an era with modern medicine and and an anesthesia and surgeons who are skilled enough to to
completely repair all the damage that was done just by happen stance. We don't have any genetic markers that would make
this a hereditary thing. It just happens and sometimes it just happens and no one's entitled for it to always go well
in everything. And I think tragedy can put that out in a way that is this third
piece for people to reference when they're going through difficult times or a crisis of faith or they've made a
mistake and like I don't I don't think it's really that bad. And you see the tragedy and all of a sudden it's like
okay no that was a mistake. I need to I need to get back on the path so to speak. And that that message I it it
cuts through in a very powerful way and affirms both the tragedy of life that is
just inherent with being alive on this earth. We live in a fallen world and things just happen. And then also the
avoiding the unnecessary tragedies of poor decisions and and tragedy speaks to
both of those things. And like Carl Young, the psychoanalyst, said that the the person whose the tree whose branches
reach upward toward the heaven have roots that reach down to hell. And I know that Joseph Smith has a similar
phrase that I don't remember off the top of my head, but like I think we need to embrace and and not again not just using
provocative content for its own sake, but not being afraid to provoke in content so long as it serves not unlike
the Book of Mormon times the narrative that it's trying to get across which is
like live the law of God. And sometimes those counter examples speak a lot
louder than just the servant who had five talents and then doubled them and that was the end of his story. But what
about the one who had one and he didn't do anything and he was cast aside, not everything taken from him. There's the
tragedy. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Barrett, all right, let's get to your film here, The Angel.
Um, I am fascinated with the approach that you take on this. It is so very
very different from what you've seen in in in Latter Day Saint film in the past,
right? You've got the angel explores a a Mormon pioneer folklore for a folk
horror, we'll call it, through a visitation of an angel to plural wives.
What inspired you to tell this story or any story in the context of a horror
film? I that's a great question and you know I mean Jake Jake so beautifully
kind of gave me a lead in here in terms of in terms of like why not it hasn't
been done uh not not not at least this way. I'm I'm I'm I'm very well read on
the history of Latter Day Saint cinema and I and I honor it and I like it and I I know lots of the current filmmakers.
I've studied the filmmakers of the past and I'm I'm certainly building on a on a rich tradition. But but to my point
earlier, I think that we have this and and actually to Jake's point, we have this obsession with trying to sort of
find the silver lining in everything as though like it, you know, and and maybe that comes from a from a of comes from
sort of an instinct of like, you know, all things will work together for good to them that love God. And ultimately
that's true. Um but the Book of Mormon, let's just use an example, is is not shy. Neither nor is the Old Testament or
frankly the New Testament um or any of the scriptures. We're reading Doctrine of Covenants and like it is not shy
about warning and forewarning and and painting a picture of horror. Um even
even all the way to the temple we have we have sort of the threat of blood and
horror showing up in in in this life in this walk on earth. And for me, where
where all of this came from is just feeling like we live in such a complicated, angry
time right now. And and and not unlike Joseph Smith's day, so many different
voices competing for so, you know, uh so many different perspectives. Each one
becoming more and more certain of itself. And uh and it's it's it's as I've gone
to the temple, as I've searched the scriptures that I'm like, you know what, where where is this piece of our
theology demonstrated? Um and and so that sort of turned me to horror. All the like several other religious
traditions um have a rich kind of backbone of of of horror art. I think as
Latter Day Saints, we immediately like, you know, I've heard this so many times. I like every movie kind, you know, every genre except horror, not horror. Um,
because we've sort of inherited this this Protestant um, you know, this Puritan like act, you know, this idea
that if you talk about the devil, he'll come and all of this stuff. And like, of course, we don't want to we don't want
to celebrate Satanism. But where does he show up? He's the first supernatural
figure that appears in the restoration. Um, he comes and tempts Moses, right? He
he shows up in in the instruction that we learn about uh Adam and Eve. And he's
he's this fifth important character that helps us to understand our relationship
to uh to the divine in in the um history of the church. The very first miracle of
the restored gospel was was casting the devil out of new night. Right? If you know this, the more you learn about the
history of the restoration, the more you you see how obsessed
um the the the early Latter-day Saints were of of, you know, determining truth
and testing truth and testing trying spirits in DNC 50, we learn about there are many diverse spirits that go along
the earth. DNC 129, which we explore a little bit in our film. Um, what could be a better,
no matter how literally you want to engage with that, what could be a better metaphor for today than the idea of
deception through means of an angel, through means of certainty and and having to decide, is this from God or is
this not from God? The our our Protestant friends would see our entire
faith expression as as this, right? They're they're positive that we're we're completely um
we're completely deceived. And so, so I know this is a lot of kind of maybe philosophical mumbo jumbo, but but you
know, kind of the the the main kernel of it is like like sort of scary warning
horror stories are are fundamental to our DNA as Latter-day Saints. They are
they are what sort of gives us the divide between following the divine and and being deceived by um you know by the
demonic. And and so that was the beginning of this. You you talk about like belief inspiring art. It really
does come from um both both a a literal and a philosophical interrogation of
like, you know, how how do we do this? And by setting it in the 1800s, you know, 1880s Utah and and and sticking it
right into the context of of early plural marriage. Jessica and I, you know, Jessica, my wife, co-directed it
with me and she really helped shape the the story of this and giving it that feminine perspective. You know, that was
invaluable um because she brings so much to the table that I I can't understand. But neither of us have this have this,
you know, we don't have any history with plural marriage other than our ancestors. So, we picked something far away in the past that's so emblematic of
like a challenging thing. And really, Greg, is it far away in the past? I mean, look at this year, you know, and
and we couldn't be more thrilled about uh about the the complexity around this
topic as it pertains to the metaphorical weight of of the angel and like how do
you know if something's from God and and what exactly are the ramifications of of
whether it is or isn't. And so, so for us, the the reactions to the angel have
been indicative of of the very need for for this for this sort of storytelling
because it's right there in the book. Like, at what point are we going to get so sensitive that we have to start just
skipping chapters of the Book of Mormon because like, oh, that's, you know, that's just not quite soft enough and
and familyfriendly enough. and and and and I'm a big believer that like, you know, in order to gain ground doctrally
on on forget all the topical issues, just on sort of understanding what it is we even
believe and what sets us apart from the rest of of Christianity and like Jake said, kind of a rediscovery of these
these more these these beautiful kind of specific
uh beliefs that set us apart. We have to be able to engage with storytelling, with art, with content, with discussions
that make us uncomfortable. Yeah, I think that's crucial. Jake, what are your thoughts on this? You've
obviously seen the film at least once. What is what is the importance of putting this
story? It's right. It's not not a scriptural story. Well, let me put it this way. So often what we've seen in
Latterday Saint film is and it's great. we need it is simply a depiction of a
historical event, right? It's like, okay, great. I can see this on the screen. This strengthens
what I see and read or what I read in the scriptures. Um, but how important is
it to put this type of a story into a Mormon historical context?
I think it's just as important as the like if you want to tell the Latter-day
Saint story, then you have to tell the Latter- Day Saint story. Like it's just unavoidable. It's such a part not just
the polygamy, but even just the setting, the setting itself in rural southern Utah in the 1800s and this polygamous
family living out in the middle of nowhere and they are isolated. And what does that do to you? What are the
stresses that are upon that family that are not upon us nowadays? And and maybe
growing in empathy and sympathy for these people that were in extreme circumstances. Like that's a story
that's part of our our heritage. And is it worth telling? I think so. I like
it's just worth telling. It's a story worth telling for its own sake. Um, and
I think this actually touches a little bit on on something that I want to make very clear that I didn't quite make
clear enough in my essay, I think, which is that like messaging doesn't
necessarily make great art. That it's having the ideals and wanting to
shoehorn them into everything that doesn't that doesn't make great art. It has to be a mastery of the medium
itself. It has to be a great artistic experience for the observer for it to be great art.
And and that doesn't just mean like for example with God, it doesn't just mean
like drawing a bunch of circles and writing the names of the cocoa beam. It's like Godwin is putting some effort
into this artistic representation of the book of Abraham and it shows and it
matters and like we have these stories and then we have to tell them in an artful and masterful way. Um is it worth
it? I mean like yeah I think it's worth it. That's the it's the trial of faith I
suppose. Like why not? It's what we have. We have a lot of it.
Barrett, there's you really did something interesting with this in in in that you you not only tell a story, but
you incorporate several scriptural truths
and and what could be very it's a very Mormony film, right? Very Mormony film.
I want to go over a few of these things. I don't think this is too big of a reveal. Sure. But but I want I want to I want to look at how you brought these in and why
you thought that was important. You've got um you've got the angel showing up and then
right after the angel originally shows up, you go back to the cabin back to the home and up on the wall there's a first
vision uh uh depiction that that's up on the wall inside of the home, right? Like
it's kind of a contrast of things. I love seeing that you've got certain garb from the angel that that the angel is
wearing, right? You've got the choice of a polygamous setting and and a a
you you you grapple with the tension of those that were living that lifestyle
uh with polygamy and and the positives, maybe the negatives and and and all that would be involved in that. You've got
the idea of uh is it section 129 with a handshake? You've got you've got one of
the plural wives who's talking about and the angel talking about being made free, which is something that is
a a an undercurrent in the scriptures that comes from a deceitful side and
it's a different idea of what free is that that you that you put in there. What did you do to kind of say, "Okay, I
want to put this in here. I want to put this in here. I want there to be these little undertones of of Mormon
messaging, so to speak, that are that help, I think, really enrich the story
that you created. That's such a fun question and thanks for asking. I mean the the film has
served sort of as a let's call it a a roars test and a litmus litmus test and
and the reason being um let's talk about the litmus test first is is we Jessica
and myself we we like we we did a deep dive and our producer Seline did a deep dive on uh on Latterday Saint history
and doctrine and I just kind of like this stuff anyway and so we were the way that we got to all of that was actually
kind of natural. We weren't trying to just cram stuff the thing with with, you know, kind of Mormon pioneer abilia. Um,
it came from a place of like if we were in their minds, what what would what
would their conception of an angel look like with whether or not it's even something that we literally would agree
with, we need to get into the mind of a of a of an, you know, 1880s Latter-day Saint and and what are going to be the
tests of faith for an 1880s Latter-day Saint. um and uh you know using these
things naturally for the storytelling. Then the next step was okay, how do we tell this story for a a non-member
audience and that was sort of our our litmus test again is is like um to what
extent someone is sort of familiar with let's call it the glyphs of the culture they will take away something different
or or understand it the way you do Greg like on a more maybe guttural level but
um it has been working for non-member audiences great like you know like we're going to show it next week in the indie
shorts International Film Festival and like uh we just got a we just got a review from these two guys that have no,
you know, a podcast breakdown and they really really enjoyed it. Um they're not clued in to all of these little tells.
Um but as long as your your story is is accessible, it doesn't matter. In fact,
that makes it better. It's why we can sit around and love a a classic like Fiddler on the Roof, which is so deeply
Jewish, right? or um several Latter Day Saints have enjoyed the two that you know um the two popes and like they're
talking about all of this specific Catholic um rhetoric that we don't know but we don't need to know and so the way
that we tested the film for audiences and this changed how we did like the the handshake thing and all of this um the
way that we tested the film was by sending it to friends we have in the film industry who were either that
nobody who was either Latter-day Saint or ex Mormon or anything in between. It was people who who you know we knew
through film festivals even better if they didn't know we were LDS until that like it got to a point where they were
like we really really like and appreciate you know this story. One of our questions by the way was like do you
feel like this is critical of the church? Do you feel like this is critical of Latter-day Saints? Which which by the way Greg I don't think
should be an obsession that we have because we're so worried about how we look and seeming normal. Um, but I knew
that I knew that other Latter-day Saints were going to wonder about that. And I wanted to make sure I wasn't accidentally, you know, saying something
that I didn't mean to say. And uh, and they all got back and they're like, "No, like how would it be?" Their big
question is like, "What do the Mormons think of this?" And so each each group is is wondering what the other thinks.
Um, but that's what allowed it to be an accessible story. And then and then Greg, like once we had the bones of the
thing and the shape of the story, we could just fill it with with specific
iconography and and tells and whatnot. And so, um, we wanted to set out to tell
a very deeply Latter Day Saint story, you know, set in our our mythos, set in
our, you know, our lore and folklore. And like, like you mentioned, I could actually send you a list. There's so
many things like tells, you know, like it's water and it's the caves of of
southern Utah. And the more that you dig and and and do the history research, the more it's like, wow, it's like it's
right then and there. Um, and we wanted it to serve as a as a, you know, a taste tester for the feature version that we
want to do where it's like, okay, this is a little this is a little look at sort of where we want to go for a
different story, but set in all the same, you know, the same universe and whatnot. It's been fun showing it to historians who are like, "Uh, I know
that that's a, you know, that's a study in Scarlet that's on her shelf and that tells you a little bit about what that
that particular character is reading and like what her worldview is if you're familiar with, you know, Sherlock Holmes first
adventure, a study in Scarlet. It's a throwaway shot." And so, um, the Doctrine of Covenants that we show is
from, uh, 1876. It's probably worth more than the whole film, and we had to be very careful with it, you know, but it's
it's right there. And so we shot in real pioneer locations. We wanted it to be this this jump into history, if you
will. Yeah. Cool. That that edition would have had the lectures on faith in it. Um Yep.
What Jake? What this is? I mean, this is a brand new Latterday Saint genre,
right? You know, call it Mormon folk horror, whatever we want to call this.
Does this open up the doors or help open up the doors more for additional genres to to be created? Because honestly,
we've you've got kind of two things I think that I've seen. One is just a simple sometimes very well done, you
know, depiction of historical events and the other is kind of your your your
Mormon comedy where we used to really see this a lot like in the 2000s, right? and and
does this open up things a lot more for where new filmmakers and other artists
can go? Yeah, I'll give you my two cents and then I'm I am going to handily give this
to Barrett because he has written and presented on this at fair and other places multiple times. Um I would say
yes and I would say films like the angel and eventually the third wife and even
java jive and all these things that that bear and many others by the way who are
sort of in their artistic ilk. I don't know if you are okay mentioning the
glass slickers, but it's a film society that is Latterday Saint focused in this
particular cultural way. And there have been some great shorts and I know there
are features in the in the in the wings, so to speak, from a lot of our Glass Lookers members that are just amazing.
They're awesome. So, it's not like Barrett's the only guy doing this. I don't want to make that that claim at
all. But um in terms of opening up new genres, I think that the angel is is an
attempt to do that certainly. However, what I would say even more so is that
like this is already being done in terms of heretic and then you see things like
American Primeval and the slew of other Latter-day Saint uh inspired at
different levels of uh what would you call uh authority and authenticity.
Let's put it that way. And like it's already being done. We are the
strange attractor to Hollywood right now for some reason. Like here we are. It's
just Latter Day Saints into everything right now in Hollywood. And so why not tell our own story in a
way that is both artistically gripping and accurate? And the accuracy has been
heavily lacking in a lot of the stuff Hollywood is making. So, is it opening up a new genre? I think it's already
been opened. It's already there. And we need to get into the game, so to speak, so that it's not just like
whack-a-orman, so to speak, on the media landscape.
Barry, do you want to add to that? Yeah. Well, I mean that's really well put from from Jake and that's exactly why a few years ago, you know, um myself
and several other young Latter Day Saint filmmakers got together and sort of observed this trend before it had really
taken off and and were like, we we need to be telling our own stories. And it's not to say that great established Latter
Day Saint filmmakers don't do this, you know. Um, of course they do, but but
certainly not what I've observed, certainly not with as much um in in intention to sort of serve the general
audience or the multi- the multi- genre audience. I think we tell stories that are inspirational that that that you
know again this is very um broad strokes but like you know the past 20 25 years
of Latterday Saint film making um even when you hear that term Latter Day Saint filmm you kind of think of of of movies
by for and about you know u Mormons and uh and I think that there's something
you know richer and and tying back to to you know both of you mentioning great
art like we and aspire for great art by by pulling back on the reinforcing of
values and pushing more the specific specificity and the identity which will
in turn sort of say more right Greg I appreciate that you got a lot out of the angel um the angel is not clearcut there
are there are a few ways to interpret it um but I think it's I think it's pretty obvious what we're doing in the story
and and so yeah so we wrote like a manifesto and we got together and formed a club now we're we're young. We don't
have um we don't have all the the means of production as it were. Um but we're
we're we're we're pushing and we're seeing a response and and and more importantly we are seeing a very
positive reaction from you know the the the non-member audience that is hungry
for these things and and we can fulfill that need so long as we're willing to
kind of step away from our terror at being at looking bad. Uh, ironically, by
being more authentic and more specific, we do look better. We're more approachable and we're more we're more
interesting rather than like, you know, I've said this a lot to Jake as we've as we sort of have complained about this,
but like our need to be nice and normal and like if if a if a stranger walked up to you and was like, "I promise you I'm
nice and I'm super normal." You'd be like, "I don't think you're either of those things now." Like now I really don't trust you. versus, you know, you
meet someone and they share all of these this eclectic kind of uniqueness and you're you're more endeared to them.
That's just a rule of storytelling. Um, and and and you know, we're we're really excited to see where it goes and we've
we've been thrilled to see that, you know, we tailored this for a
non-Latterday Saint audience because we had no idea how how Latter Day how fellow Latter-day Saints would react.
And we couldn't care, Greg. We we we couldn't let ourselves care because that would have polluted the art. And we I
have just been thrilled to see that there is a taste for it within that there's a yearning for something that's
willing to kind of get more specific, push more boundaries, and and and take
us out of a a reaffirmation and into a reclamation, if that makes sense.
Yeah. Tell me about the casting of Doug Jones as as the angel, right? What what
led you to cast him? God, that's such a good story. This is good. Do you want to take this,
Jake, or should I No, no, no. You do it. I mean, I don't know all the details. Just every time you tell it, it's like, how did this
happen? I'm I'm uh I'm I'm nothing if not verbose. So, just shut me up if I'm I'm
on a runaway train. But, um but uh to to make a long story short, because I've
told this a few times, and this actually I I'll be I'll be honest with you, Greg, because Jessica and I were really really
prayerful about this this short film. I think we're walking a line that's like right up to the line and and only, you
know, we kind of prayed that the spirit would help us understand what that line was to be both interesting and
accessible and also like careful still. Um, but uh we saw my my producer and I
were at a uh film festival in Provo and uh and Doug Jones was there as a special
guest, you know, and he's like a horror veteran. He's if if you don't know and you're listening, Doug's been in Pan's Labyrinth. Um was in The Shape of Water
as The Shape of Water, Hocus Pocus, the Hellboy movies. Like he's he's extremely
prolific um in his, you know, uh in everything he's been in. And and Doug
has this like really interesting look, right? He's kind of ethereal and thin and tall and, you know, he's in his 60s.
Um, and and so he he he looks like he's been around and yet there's a youthfulness to him, too. And our, you
know, our producer Seline was like, "Hey, you should go talk to him. He looks exactly like how you described you
wanting you wanted the angel to even sandy colored hair." That was way important to us because Joseph Smith
said a certain something about angels with sandy colored hair, which you can look up. I'm not going to spoil it. Um, and and so I was like, shoot, I like
he's mobbed with people pitching him on stuff. there's no way. Um, but we said a little prayer and it was like, "Okay,
let's just see what happens." And as I'm walking over to him, I kid you not, the the director of the whole festival,
who's who I'm buddies with, stopped me and said, "Hey, I haven't read your script that's in the competition. I don't know anything about your story,
but I just thought I should tell you like Doug has always wanted to play an angel. So, if that doesn't like mess up
your your story in any way, and I'm I'm on my way over to pitch him as the angel and I'm like, "Thank you so much for
telling me that." And so, then I went and talked to Doug and you know, he was amazing. I told him, "I love you and all
of this work." And then I was like, I pitched him a little thing and he's kind of like, "Whoa, you know, pioneer, you
know, Mormon pioneer polygamy horror film." And you say that to anybody, LDS or not, and they're like, "I've never
even heard of something like that. That's fascinating." and uh and he looked at me, he's like, "You're not
going to believe this. I've always wanted to play an angel." And we're like, "Oh, hey, look at that." Turns out
Doug is a very like sweet, very very like
phenomenal non-denominational Christian guy. He's just he's just we I didn't know that about him, but he's religious.
And I sort of get nervous because I asked him like, you know, why have you always wanted to play an angel? And he's
like, "Oh, you know, my sweet sweet boy." Like he's he's this very affusive. He's like, "Sweet boy, like there are
two kinds of angels. Those that God sends and those in your life." And I'm like, "Oh crap." Like I wonder if he
knows the nature of this, you know, and uh and I went back to him and you know from a New Testament basis, I was like,
"Doug, there's actually three kinds of angels. You know, the third is the one that's not and you understand, right,
based on the pitch." And he was like, "Oh, I got that. I got that." He's like, "As long as I get to wear the white robes and stuff." So, so he came on set
and was just just incredible. And he's already expressed interest of coming back as the same character for the
feature. Um, and uh, it was cool. He was like, I don't I don't share the the the
Mormon stuff. I don't know about this polygamy history or anything, but I I do
know what you're trying to do with this character. And and I I believe the same things about him that you do that
without spoiling, you know, any of the film. And and if that's not a sort of
missionary work tool to make this dark kind of intense piece that is
unapologetic about the things that we are and is not trying to say we're the same things and yet we were able to come
together on on like the um you know the crossover kind of like uh kind of like
yourself and is it Jeff from Hello Saints? Yes. Um, yeah, there there there are bridges that
can be built when the bridges are coming from sort of an equal standing in terms
of power dynamics when it's not us just con constantly trying to ape or trying to trying to fit in and instead holding
our ground of like this is what we are. We're not the same thing. We aren't. It's not the same Jesus, but it is Jesus
Christ. And we're we're interpreting him different ways and suddenly we cross over and we go, "Oh, it is the same
Christ. It's God." You know, and and to what extent we can't we can't understand that. I hope that makes sense. It's like
by being by being honest and by being unapologetic, we actually gain more
ground. Yeah, I agree fully with that. That is my approach and I I think it's important
that people don't cower in any sense. again, lean into your uniqueness. I think that that's that's really
important to do. Jake, we're going to I'm going make move over to Java Dive here real quick and
just bring that up because I want to put a link in the description box so that people can check that that movie out.
Now, we're going all the way from Barrett's uh uh horror film over to a
comedic film, right? Mh. And and so you've got quite a spectrum here, Barrett, on on what you're working
on here, but tell me what your impressions were on Java Jive.
I mean, like I wrote about in the essay, I watched Java Jive and it was so funny.
I was just laughing so hard, which please, everybody who is watching this now, please watch Java Jive. It's not
very long. It's what, 15 minutes, something like that. And it's so funny. And and I just I just
got done laughing laughing. Man, that was such a good one. And then I couldn't
stop thinking about it. I was just thinking about it over and over for for weeks. Like, man, this character Ben
that is just what about that is just so painfully relatable. What is he what he
is going through? Because just a brief sort of non-spoiler uh summary is is it's this guy Ben who's
a Latter-day Saint and he has a girlfriend who does not know that and she takes him to a coffee shop and then
everything plays out as it would for someone who is very uncomfortable with
coffee, does not want to drink the coffee, but also does not want to say it's because I'm Mormon. And so things
just spiral out of control and it almost three stooges way and it's so funny. Um
but then by the end he's just thinking like am am I doing this? When have I
done this? Of course I've done this. How can I not do this? How can I just like it would have just gone so much better
for him if he had said oh well I'm a I'm a Latter-day Saint. I don't drink coffee
for religious reasons. I'm so sorry I didn't make that clear. Oh, I I didn't
know that. What does that mean? And then maybe they could have a conversation instead of just this disaster that
unfolds in the coffee shop. Um and the missionaries are part of it all. And
it's really it's really good. But um you talk about leaning into cultural specificity,
that specific um scenario, that narrative is so
Latter-day Saint. I think at some level it's even more Latter-day Saint than the angel in terms of like everybody has
felt this way at some point growing up as a Latter-day Saint and some people kind of I guess rise above so to speak
and at least in that moment and then maybe it comes back later. It's always a struggle and some people capitulate and
those are the sort of seminary videos of they're passing the weed around in the circle like oh well I'll just pass it
and then the police come and bust everybody who smells like weed and and and those sort of like uh didactic
tragedies which don't use endings either by the way which yeah I do not I think John J falls into
that category a little bit um but then also beyond the cultural
specificity like anyone can watch that and think that it's not only hilarious
but also like something to be learned from even if they're not Latter Day
Saint like I'm sure they have some sort of experience. It's oh you know I I'm glutenree and this one time I didn't say
it and then I got hives and stuff and it was awful
but um but then the Latter Day Saint coatedness adds the depth. It adds the punch. Um, I I just love it. I love that
short. I think it's awesome. Thank you, Jay Barrett. The uh I I think even going beyond the idea of saying you're a
Latter-day Saint having Ben, you know, confess to his to his identity. Um is
also the tension that just it starts from the very beginning where you've got the the missionaries and Ben at this
guy's house. Yeah. And this guy's pulling out all this stuff from the refrigerator. He's got I
think I I don't know if he's drooling or he's got stuff coming down on his mouth
on his sandwich, you know, and they're talking about well, wait a minute. What? So, you're saying I can't you guys can't
drink coffee, you know, and and it taps into something else that that you kind
of are doing with a horror film. And that is just a real, like you said,
guttural reality of of of something, right? There's a tension and a conflict
there, especially lately on this idea of drinking coffee and what's the issue,
right? Because a lot of people say, "Well, it's all about your health and well, coffee, what is that going to do
to you?" You know, and it's so there's this tension that is built in there for for the the main character, Ben. Because
he's kind because the guy in the at the house is kind of explaining, wait a minute, why are you doing this? And why
is that so important? Why does that matter? you're saying, you know what, if you drink coffee, you're going to hell
or something. And and so I think it really is very self-reflective for an
individual, for a Latter-day Saint to say, "Yeah, I've thought about this before. What is the big deal?"
Did you try to put in that type of tension? Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, um, you
know, the the the trying to explain it away, which he does, which Ben does, is is such a like western materialist
like like approach, you know, like and that missionary gives the answer. It's just a sacrifice. It's just a thing for
its own sake. Um, because our because our reasons always slip out from under us, right?
And and if you look the the further back in history you look, the more the more challenging the word of wisdom becomes.
I'm not just talking about when it started as not a commandment. I'm talking about the es and flows of just I mean you growing up uh I'm sure the
caffeine was this this reason and and um and and sort of like plural marriage and
the angel it's it's meant to be the word of wisdom is just meant to be a a standin for whatever you know um because
it doesn't make sense. It's not supposed to make sense at least in my opinion you know that's not that's not what it's
there for. And and to Jake's point about like switching out, you know, the the
the way that I went about writing that was like what is a scenario that is so specific to us yet so universal and the
menu the menu shot talks about that of of course you know he he could he could and and and does so somewhat cynically
because all of these groups get a pass, you know, and then and then all of a sudden it's like Latter Day Saints with their coffee, you know, and it's like he
he could be he could be a young man who is Jewish and observes kosher and it's a big shellfish, you know, and like and
you could make the whole thing shellfish themed and it'd be hilarious, you know, or a Muslim young man just to use the
monotheistic traditions. Like it is so completely human for us to have a a a a
dietary code of ethics, if you will. And and it is more human the more that it
doesn't make sense. And so that's why that's why the investigator is sort of just this and who which of us who served
a mission haven't been in that in that house in this absurdity of a of a situation where he has heroine and he
has you know like he has a a very intentionally our production designer this is subtle but he has a painting of
the cult of of Dianices the feast of Dianices and like which is everything the word of wisdom is is opposed to and
he's building this meat sandwich and he's his his refri his two refrigerators are full of like monsters and be here
and stuff and the missionaries are word of wisdom. Hilarious. They're coffee and tea missionaries. That's all they can serve because you
don't want to get too complicated. Um, and in my view, Greg, like I feel like what you're getting at is sort of like
the film, the film is able to invoke the audience, the the LDS audience, and sort
of sort of judge them for not standing up for what they are because it is also
self-critical, because it is also self-reflective, because, you know, we have the cultural cache and authority to
be able to to plum the depths a little bit and go, "Okay, we can we can laugh at ourselves. We can talk about
ourselves. Um because we also have to have to abide by by the by the identity
by the religion. And you know there are some great and funny Mormon comedies throughout our throughout our um
history. I think the way I tried to approach it was like I wanted to go a different direction with it by and and
Jake actually cited this in his paper which I appreciated which is like how how have like Jewish or Cathol
specifically Jewish but how have like some of the other cultural comedians been able to be so richly Jewish and
then also translate to um to a a universal audience. And I and I think some of the problem with our comedy
tradition is it it can become insular. we're telling each other the joke. Um, and and not, you know, not sort of
universally accessible. And so, so, yeah, absolutely. The tension should ratchet, but but to Jake's point, who
hasn't been in a situation where they're just like, I have to get out of this thing and I don't want to say why. And that's that's where you have to start.
Yeah. It's great. Well, you know, art is just so important. It it's it's so I mean, look at all the discussions we're
having here, whether it's philosophy, religion, uh, civilization, etc. you know, art really is such a um a
communication tool that that we don't get really in any other way whether you
know I suppose writing can be an art as well but but the the the visual art is
is something so important for us and we can see where to me where a lot of art is going today is a great reflection of
our culture. Uh we're going to put the link to Java Jive in the description box. Tell me about Angel, the angel, and
where might people be able to see that? Yes, thank thank you for asking. So, you
know, as of us recording this, um, the angel is not readily available online.
It's still moving through film festivals, which we're very proud of that it's like these are not just LDS
spaces. Um, and and so we have a newsletter that you can subscribe to where we regularly post where to where
to see the angel on the big screen. That's the best way to do it. Um, but also a lot of these film festivals um
have virtual components and and so this month it will be available to stream as part of the the Indie Shorts
International Film Festival. Um, and so if you want to there are a few ways to follow the Angel and once it's done with
the film festival run, we'll post it online if you want to wait. But if you want to see it now, um, you can follow
our newsletter. You can go to our website, um, burgundy.com, bergen, my last name, berg i d i e, like berg indie
burgundy. Um, and uh, you can follow the the piece there. Um, and and or you can
follow our Instagram, Burgundy Pictures, and all of those places will keep you updated on where to watch it um, either
virtually as part of a film festival or if it's coming um, to a town near you. It has shown multiple times in Utah. Um,
I imagine a lot of your your viewers are are in Utah, Greg, and so if they want to catch it there, it almost certainly
will come back. Um, but if it happens to be coming to a town near you, we'd love you to come see it on, you know, on the
big screen and and bring some friends and we can all have a discussion about it afterward.
All right. Well, Barrett and Jake, thanks so much for uh this discussion. Very enlightening. I think the audience is going to like it quite a bit. Maybe
we'll get you back on the show. Love that. Thanks for your time. Always good.
